Good to see you. Thanks for coming in.
What was your reaction when you were
heard heard you were on this list of
sanctioned people?
>> Well, it's always a bit surprising when
something like that happened because uh
in the years leading up to the 2022 uh
invasion of Ukraine, it was a regular
visit to Russia. I still keep in close
touch with many Russian academics and
experts for my consultancy work and for
my books and uh media publications. but
also was not wholly surprising given the
fact that there's been such a severe
crackdown on free speech inside Russia
as well as insulation of all Western and
outside influences. They're just
accusing WhatsApp and Telegram of
promoting fraud and terrorism and now
this is a country that's criminalizing
uh inappropriate internet searches.
>> So to ban a critic is not so surprising.
>> Do you see it as a badge of honor or is
there is there an element of concern
that they are taking a look at you and
others? Well, I mean some extent it is a
badge of honor because it does indicate
that I have been explicitly critical of
the Russian invasion of Ukraine, its
impact on civilians, its faraway impacts
including on food insecurity in the
global south which is very ironic that
they were now accusing me of promoting
western necolonialism in that
non-western world and also for
international security. But on the other
hand, it is uh quite sobering and quite
disappointing because I think that
dialogue and uh maintaining connections
between academics, institutions and also
at a person-toperson level was important
for regulating deconliction during the
end of the cold war and its immediate
aftermath. That would be essential if we
are to have a lasting peace. Now,
>> we have seen Russia in recent years
operate within the UK, certainly against
the kind of voices it doesn't like. Um
do you think about that kind of thing?
you think about security given that your
name is now on this list amongst others.
>> Well, I mean I think it's important to
distinguish between a stop list which
bans you from traveling to Russia from
other kinds of lists that tie explicitly
to criminal charges like espionage or
sedition or from fermenting terrorism
and extremism. Those two things are not
the same. But definitely given the fact
that we've seen the Salsbury poisonings
and the Lifenko assassination and the
fact that Russia is engaging in many
dangerous hybrid tactics all across the
European continent. I just came back
from Vius and over there they were uh
basically burning up an IKEA and they
were carrying out arson attacks next
door in Poland. So obviously you have to
be some degree worried but with caveats
and you can't live your life in total
paranoia.
>> You mentioned some you you've been there
before. Had you hoped to go back to
Russia at some point to do your work
effectively?
>> Well, I mean I think as long as this war
was going on and we're in such a bad
state of relations as well as probably
with President Putin and his codery in
power, it was basically impossible. So I
kind of written it off unfortunately as
something but I definitely hope that in
a different scenario it would be
possible to go and and maybe it could
still be if there is some kind of
movement towards liberal reform and
change. I I just wrote an article for
the Telegraph uh yesterday and I quoted
the dissident Karam Murza who was
talking to his FSB escort and his FSB
escort says you'll never see the
motherland again. He says I'm a
historian. I remember what Russian
history is like and I'll be back sooner
than you think. Yes. And regimes like
Putin's can sometimes fall suddenly.
Changes can happen radically and you
never know what could happen. Just look
at Syria.
>> Yeah. Well, just look at the USSR
itself. Uh yeah, within living memory,
of course, for for many of us. Um you
may look at the rest of the list and
think I'm in pretty good company here.
Matthew S is on there and John Sweeney
and others. Did you look at the other
people that they have sanctioned? Have
you spoken to any of them about it?
>> Yeah. Well, I haven't spoken to anybody
from that list today, but I definitely
know a lot of those people. Personally,
I'm Tom Keiting, who's my colleague from
Rusei. He does financial crime related
stuff. He's been really a key advocate
for smarter sanctions. Ironically, the
very kind of sanctions that Britain just
imposed on intermediaries in places like
Kyrgyzstan that the Russians now
provoked and and responded to us. John
Sweeny's an old colleague of mine. I
know him from from speeches and from
different events. So, uh yeah, it's a
very good list to be part of. and uh the
broader list of people from the United
States, Canada, and Europe are many of
the leading and most uh knowledgeable
voices.
>> And just to finish off, are there any
formalities about being alerted that
you're on this list, or do you just find
out because the Russians put it out and
that was all that was to it? Has the
home office been in touch? Have the
security services spoken to you about
this?
>> Well, I was actually funny. So, I was
touching down for my flight from
Copenhagen to London and it was your
producer, Maddie, who gave me a call and
basically says, "Hey, come on Sky News
at in 20 minutes." And I was just on a
plane. I just didn't know. I checked it.
I said, "Wow, I'm on a Kremlin list."
So, yeah, there was no real outreaches
from anybody, but it was just uh funny
that your team typed it me up and I'm
happy to be able to explain it on your
show.
>> We are glad to be of service. Perhaps
not the service you're expecting, but
glad nonetheless. Samuel, thank you very
much indeed for coming to talk to us.
>> Thank you very much. Yeah, great to be
here.